You stated the same reason for the discouragement of Solar arrays by referring to previous statements, suggesting that your 'objectionableness' (if that's even a word) was the same to all solar arrays. You stated that you dislike arrays because they don't require something to keep them going (besides the sun), and I was responding with something meaning "neither do regular solar panels".
Very well, GK, since you seem to think you're making arguments and not just complaining that I'm asking questions, I'm going to go through all your posts here, quote you directly, and respond directly. Oh, and probably ask you to clarify and expound on a few things, because I certainly am not taking your statements as fact. TL;DR: GK is wrong. In this quote you are making the following assertions: - Solar Panels in large amounts cause lag. - They used to be cheap, but are no longer due to the need for two electronic circuits. - Water Mills create more lag than Solar Panels when used with active, bucket-fed systems. I concur with these assertions. In this quote you are making the following assertions: - CompactSolars as a whole is overpowered. - If CompactSolars is present in the server, no other method of IC2 power generation is useful (obsolete!) I will point out that saying something is so, does not make it so. You have done absolutely nothing, at this point in the thread so far, to indicate why CompactSolars is OP, and why it renders all other power generation means obsolete. In this quote you are making the following assertion: - It does not matter what the cost to acquire an item is, all that matters is the end-product. I disagree. It takes a substantial amount of time, effort, and hard work to get the end-product in this instance. You should not arbitrarily dismiss this because you allege that it does not matter. If it doesn't matter, explain why; again, just because you say it doesn't matter, doesn't mean it doesn't matter. That is strictly your opinion, and you have not given me, nor anyone else, a reason to agree with you. The first part of this quote is you repeating yourself from earlier. You, once again, have not explained what makes CompactSolars over powered, or what makes it render all other blocks obsolete. The second part of your quote alleges that the reason people aren't making mass amounts of solar panels is the work involved in crafting them. I remind you that an HV solar requires you to craft 512 solar panels, 64 LV Transformers, 8 MV Transformers, and 1 HV Transformer. That's a lot of work, both in crafting, and in amassing all the materials and creating the base components. That "1 little block" costs an enormous amount of resources, time, time spent mining, constructing base components, and assembling the hundreds of panels involved in a single HV panel. If someone chooses to make a factory to automate this process, that's not "cheating" or "lazy" or "overpowered" it's working smart, and not hard. I note that I can make a factory to automate the production of regular solar panels now, in Alice, the result of which is that I would need to spend only a few minutes after the fact placing and connecting all of those panels. According to you, any work I put in before the end product is complete is irrelevant (You said: It's not a matter of how much they are it's a matter of what they can do once their crafted), so the construction of infrastructure and material acquisition doesn't matter. Hours, days of work that culminates in a few minutes placing down solar panels. Apparently this is overpowered, but is standard fare in Minecraft. You work hours and hours gathering materials, to put down blocks. In this quote you make the following assertions: - I am missing the point for why CompactSolars was removed. - Again, every other way of power became obsolete. - The only thing stopping people from making solar panel arrays is not lag, but laziness. - HV solar panels are easy, so more people will use it. - Mass fabricators can make diamonds! I have quoted, to this point, every post you have made in this thread that was remotely relevant to the discussion on CompactSolars. You have, to this point, not explained at all why CompactSolars was removed. You have made the claim that because HV solar panels, in their final produced form, are easy, they remove any incentive to use the many, varied, vastly cheaper, and in any number of cases more powerful forms of generating IC2 energy. Am I twisting your words here? Or is this a logical deduction based on your quoted statements above. Mass fabricators being able to make diamonds is entirely irrelevant to CompactSolars. Mass fabricators can, will, and are being used to make diamonds, tin, iron, gold, and all the other things that UU-Matter can be crafted in to. All without the use of a single HV solar panel. This is a straw man argument that bears no actual relevancy to the issue at hand. In this quote you have made the following assertions: - You were exaggerating your earlier argument about why people aren't using huge amounts of solar panels. - CompactSolars is actually NOT convenient. - You are not talking about, nor appear to care about, the crafting requirements of CompactSolars. - You are referring exclusively to the end product. - Again, they make every other power generation method obsolete. - No one will make any array. Oh, except for me, and another person, and all that will do is create lag. Up until this point you have been saying, again and again, that CompactSolars makes things easy, that it's the most attractive option of all the methods to generate power. And then you backtrack and say no, it's actually not convenient at all. You just acknowledged that there is some effort and work required, and it's not simply "easy". You are again dismissing the massive amount of material, mining time, and effort required to make even one HV solar panel. Again your only complaint stems from what the panel itself can do once it is made; and again, you make your claim that it renders everything else obsolete. You have still not explained this beyond that it's a single block. You alleged that no one would normally make solar powers, because of the expense and work involved. But you think that they would gladly making an HV solar panel which includes all the expense and work of making 500 solar panels. At this point your logic is highly circular and insensible. Assertions in this quote: - Used existing infrastructure to launch your own. - Nuclear Reactors are able to generate more energy than HV Solar Panels. - Space is your primary complaint. So someone else, sometime, put in a ton of work and effort to make an HV solar panel. And you leeched off of this effort to get started on your own. Many times you have claimed no other mode of power generation is useful when CompactSolars is installed; and then you go and say Nuclear Reactors can produce more power. Obsolete, huh? I disagree. And now we come to it at last, your complaint boils down to the fact that, as you've said before, it produces a large amount of energy in 1 block. Let me remind you why this discussion is taking place in the first place: Because large, dedicated power generation facilities take up a huge amount of space and create an enormous amount of lag for everyone in the surrounding area. But in your case, your very obvious, stated preference here is for the large, laggy power generation. You do not want the obvious, easy solution to this issue: CompactSolars. The cost of UU-Matter, according to yourself, is perfectly fine and good. Assertions: - You acknowledge that they need to get the huge amount of materials for an HV panel. - You claim it's irrelevant. - You don't care, at all, about what it costs, only what happens once it's made. - Your problem is with the power generation implicit in CompactSolars, and not the item generation implicit in Mass fabricators. Excuse me, what? I haven't quoted the relevant portions, but you have been complaining extensively about EE's ability to create matter from nothing. And then you go and say you have no problems with a mass fabricator doing the same. If you have no problem with a mass fabricator, why do you care what powers it? There is no other machine, in IC2, that requires that much power. Without a mass fabricator, there is no reason to make HV panels. Maybe an MV panel to power your machines, but you absolutely, positively do not need an HV panel unless you are powering a mass fabricator. Do you disagree? If so, what ELSE would you use an HV panel for? - You assert, again, that you don't care about what I do with my resources. - You assert, again, that you care what I do with the end-product. I contend that they are ONE and the SAME. The end-product is the sum of my resources. It is what I have done with my resources. So, I allege: you do care what I do with my resources. This is the natural implication of your statement that you have, from this point forward, constantly denied. - You assert that 1 block, which is easy to move, is too easy to be permitted. - You say that no one is making vast amounts of Water Mills or Solar Panels because they are difficult to setup. - Doing either of the previous, water mills or solar panels, will create lag to both server and client. I remind you, you used this to answer a number of different questions. And I remind you, that the lag is a problem because people ARE ACTUALLY building these things, contrary to your statements that they won't build them. And that the lag as an issue is the entire reason this thread exists. I contend that most people, who make an HV Solar Panel, are not going to move it once they put it down. They will hook it up to their energy network, and that will be the end of that. Maybe a few people will move it around. Unless they're moving from one place to another, and taking all their belongings, I can't fathom why. As I have earlier stated, there is only one thing to power with an HV Panel, and that is a mass fabricator. And most people are going to put an HV panel down, hook it to their mass fabricator, and leave it there. Indefinitely. And just take out the UU-Matter, which you have already stated you like the cost of it, and have no complaints regarding either it, or the fabricator it comes from. At this point we have Alurios who gives us this: Assertions: - The problem with CompactSolars is portability. - CompactSolars is too easy! I note that earlier in this post I quoted you, GK, and you said that CompactSolars wasn't actually convenient. And that the problem was space. And then it wasn't space, but portability. And I have already discussed why portability is a straw-man argument. People will put it down and leave it where it is. They're not going to pick it up and move it anymore than they would pick up and move a bunch of IC2-base Solar Panels. There is no reason to. CompactSolars offers a compact format for solar power generation, so that the footprint is reduced and space is saved. And that is what people use it for, not because they can tote it around in their inventory and put it down willy nilly. Yes, we've been over what you and he have told me. So many times. And I've restated it, hopefully in a manner you are able to understand, in this post, heavily sourced with your own words so that they will be staring you in the face, and you can't claim I'm twisting your words. In summation: You have not explained why CompactSolars is overpowered, except to contradict yourself. You have not explained why it renders other means of power generation obsolete. You have not explained why it is not an ideal solution to the issue of lag from large solar arrays and water mill systems.
Portability and Space is a related issue. Conventional systems require some space, and as a result are less and less portable and/or more space consuming the more energy they output. A nuclear reactor outputting EV are basically unmovable, and require a good amount of space. Solar arrays on the other hand keep that portability no matter which tier you're using. once a person who has a HV solar array, wants to move their base, they take their HV solar array, plop it down, and don't have to worry about the power anymore. Due to the crafting recipe of solar arrays you can go all the way up to a HV Solar Array, without having more than 21 solar arrays/panels at any single point, and you simply add a single solar panel each time you have the resources.
Good points. Points I like. Though I would contend that a NR outputting EV (CASUC) does not actually take that much space, and the takedown / putup time of a reactor is under 30 minutes. Easily. But will you respond to this: If HV and MV are disabled, and not craftable, is LV an acceptable compromise? It reduces the space required by 8, and the number of solar panels in the world by 8. You'll still need a lot of them placed to generate EU, but it doesn't take up a ginormous amount of space to make 512 EU/T versus 512 panels. And it's not an HV/MV, where you get that much in no space at all.
If i stated that, find where i did. Yes i know solar panels don't need anything. But the sun but are we talking about regular solars, no.
I wonder if sk could write a restriction (in form of code) so that you can only place 1 HV in a radius of ~30 blocks. Removed offensive content. Please be nice next time. - Tex
I wouldn't go so far as to say that, more that he is seemingly stubborn. Which is not always a bad thing in some situations, but in this case, it has resulted in two extremely stubborn people with opposing views posting walls of text or ignorant rants. There are clear links in what Kirazy has been saying and Gknova has been ignorant, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me about whether Compact Solars is installed. I originally started simply by saying that it would solve lag problems on Main Island (though I'm not affected now since I moved). And everyone needs to remember, it's just a game. No need for difference of opinion to result in insults or personal attacks. Not saying that it has, but at the way this is going it looks like it may.
Could we please keep this discussion civilized and refrain from personal attacks? Anyways: Back on Topic: enabling the LV solar array is borderline, but acceptable to me, especially since you can't put that output into tin wire, and three/six of them can be compared to a 12-watermill system.
Cran has arrived, Cran will sort this out. The reason that arrays were disabled is due to the fact that after one has been made the user no longer has to worry about maintaining a power generation. It is also incredibly portable. I myself was affected with the change since I designed a mining system that ran on MV panels, I had to adjust and come up with a new yet manageable system, which I did. We only wanted users to be more involved in maintaining their power sources, hopefully adding a new aspect to the game " such as getting hungry" without maintenance you would run out of power. Watermills suck and I hate them, those laggy things. Why users do make huge mill systems, do they not know the lag they cause to others? Selfish I say. I think we should remove them. I encourage users to use reactor powered or generator fired systems. Also no one should be attacking each other over such silly things. Unless they use apple products then I encourage torture.
Before i was going to hit "Post Reply" on a reply that took me 15min to write analyzing some of your quotes as well, i see a bunch of personal attacks on me, made by you. When did i make an attack like that on you? i thought this discussion was suppose to be civilized and purely intellectual instead of going at eachother like "YOUR A DUMBASS" "NO U" and let others see that it's just a couple of dumb trolls duking it out, but no, you had to make it peronal -_-. I gues i'll be the bigger person here and not retaliate to the following: When did i do this?
