The reason why we aren't considering CC is because there is an apparent strong lack of understanding regarding the fundamental issues at stake here. For one, you are not building a player-driven economy. That already exists simply because humans are involved and trade is not against the rules. You are suggesting building a player-owned exchange/bank and shop system, which is a very important distinction. Now the main problem with player-owned exchange and shop system is trust, but not the "technical kind" of figuring out who the player is. It's the one that gives rise to the risk of (problem #1) the exchange owner giving him or herself more money. Now for Bitcoin, it does not have a trust issue because it depends on cryptography. The name "Bitcoin" is being thrown around here as if Bitcoin invented online currencies: it did not -- it invented cryptocurrency. Bitcoin is not safe because it is open source either: it is safe because of crytopgraphy. Unless the proposed currency uses crytography to enforce trust of the entire system (NOT technical trust of communication between computers), then Bitcoin shouldn't even be mentioned because it has no relation. Cryptography is also used in a very specific manner with Bitcoin. Shops that accept the currency exacerbate the problem. Every shop has to be setup by the exchange owner (or by individuals trusted by the exchange owner and everyone using the system) OR buyers would have to pre-approve every purchase. If not, then (problem #2) shops could send fake purchases to the bank. The trust issue could be "fixed" if it was protected and maintained by moderators. However, in that scenario, you're back in the same situation of us running the system. And if the system is going to be run by us, then why even write in CC? It wouldn't even be subject to problems like chunk corruption that a world-based system has to deal with. Now, it's still entirely possible to build a player-run system, but most of the discussion about CC has so far revolved around technical problems, overlooking the "real" problems: solutions to problem #1 and #2.
Agreed. With CC, even if you are able to secure the system from fraud by buyers and sellers, participants still must extend trust to the exchange operators. The only "solution" we came up with to build that trust was transparency. Posting the complete transaction history to a website, for example. Of course if the operators were going to give themselves currency, they could falsify transactions and no one would be the wiser. It's better all around to run a mod on the server. It's more likely players would use a currency controlled by the staff anyway.
Hmm... I'll get cracking on frontend then. Feel free to suggest anything on how it could work! However, I don't want to use MiscPeripherals for a few reasons, dear Glitch. The developer RichardG has abandon it, it is very buggy, and there are better ways of doing what we need it to do. Well, It'll take a good amount of time on my own, I'm willing to contribute to this economy I'll post here when progress has been made. For now, I need ideas on how the frontend should be accomplished. Are we going for a bank sort of system? Will the authentication be something that you have (debit cards, etc.), something you know (account number & PIN), or something you are (like biometrics). Discuss! Sorry, thanks for correcting me on that. On the subject of trust with the exchange owner, I'm aware of it and am still working on gaining a level of trust from people. Open to hear any ideas! Your second problem where shops could send fake purchases to the bank is another one I'm aware of but I've got a solution to this (going to be in my next progress update) without us setting up the vendor's machines. A buyer's pre-approval is a good idea, thou. Infact, I plan to open source the client to encourage people to make changes to it to accomodate their shop (maybe a different GUI or something) This is true but it's absolutely no fun to do this. Isn't that the whole point of MC or am I missing something? Every server has this and it's boring as f**k.
With the open-sourcing of the client, a problem that may arise is the vendor attempting to phish-out or scam the buyer. My solution to this will be an automated escrow system. Here's how it'll work as a concept: 1. The buyer goes to the vendor's POS and 'buys' something 2. They have the option to use escrow or not 3. If yes, the client computer will send the item over to a more trusted system which will hold it 4. The buyer goes to their computer at home (like their online banking one) and through an escrow section, they're able to see the exact item(s) information they're getting (id, dmg value, name, raw name, and possibly more) for an x amount of money. 5. If they approve the transaction, the item(s) is transfered to them, and the money is transfered to the vendor account 6. If they deny, the item(s) is returned to the vendor One thing to note is that since the POS will be open-source so the Vendor can actually opt-out of escrow if they really wanted to. This is when we advise you that any transaction done outside of escrow will not be protected by us. You are at your own risk when doing this. For another idea, just like ebay, there could also be a place on your online banking where you can see registered vendors by their username and/or shop name and all info pertaining to them. Possible information would be things like successful transactions through escrow, buyer reviews, and the total trade volume that the vendor has done. This is something that is going to distinguish us immensely from other servers. Since no easypeasy Java is being used, alot of real life aspects is being introduced here as well as the solutions to real life problems. Would people be willing to use this? Suggestions for improvement?
Generally it's not administrators that do anything to maintain the currency/bank/exchange/etc. specifically on servers, but it IS done by the server because of problems #1 and #2. Some servers' administrators DO meddle in specific prices but that's usually a poor idea. Even if the client was not open sourced, someone could just simply emulate the client and send falsified data. Very few people would attempt it, but only one or two people need to do it to destroy trust in the system. Anyway, because we will not be forcing people to use the currency in their shops (we've never forced a currency on the server), they get to choose between: Bartering with trade-o-mats Having to check seller reviews, use escrow services, and so on etc. Which option do you think people will prefer?
Please re-read my above post. I have edited it. But, it won't be that simple to gain anything from sending falsified data since I'm basically allowing a client to just send and join whatever and whenever they want (a bit hard to explain). The commands that they can send can be indeed falsified but they would gain nothing from it since all 'sensitive' things (again, hard to explain) would be handled by the server or a machine setup by us in a protected area. Take the escrow system for example.
I was referring to the case where the client handles the shop transaction, but it obviously doesn't apply if an escrow system is utilized. However, at that point, the issue is that a lot of work is involved (from a player's point of view) to trade some items. Remember that whatever system is set up has to "compete" with the existing solution, which is to barter. Also I disagree that it's "like real life." Real life has your real name and life attached to your actions, and cheating someone else can have very negative consequences (the FBI, lawsuits, baseball bat to the face, etc.). Not only is this online, it's for a game for a world that lasts for at most 1.5 years -- there are few repercussions for breaking the system. Because of that, you don't have to escrow every little purchase you make in real life.
I'm open to ideas on competing with our current system. As I said, the escrow system as well as the ebay-like concept doesn't need to be used. Glitch has pointed out some really good reasons to use the currency system in his posts on here. And, yeah, I guess you're right but it still introduces the crime of fraud, and scamming, just not the real life consequences for it
Kill them and take their stuff. Currency is just a more efficient means to an end. Why is a Shop Sign mod bad again? What kind of moderation would it require?
Haha, I thought of that but the no PvP rule crossed my mind . The shop sign plugin is just boring to me. Every server has it and it's no fun at all to create a shop that easily. I just wanted to take a different approach this time and distinguish us from the 300+ servers that have essentially the same plugin. I mean if no one else is sick of shop signs, go for it.
The only reason I was ever interested in a player-run currency was that the server did not already have one, and the staff did not seem to want to implement one. It was a workaround to get us something that would make trading on the server better. I think we all understand your opinion gknova61, but all the reasons why a player-run currency would be sub-optimal have been made and seem quite convincing . How about we put this part of the conversation to rest?
With your system, it's would be just as easy (once the kinks were worked out) to set it up. Do you think people are going to write code to setup a shop? No. So your system would be as boring as a sign shop mod: people just have to figure out how to use it and that's the end of the story. Whether someone has to right click a sign or right click a computer monitor block doesn't change anything. The only person that would have "fun" is you -- no one else. Besides that, we were something like the first ever Minecraft server to use even signs for interactive mechanics, and while we may not end up using signs, I see no problem using something that we invented. It's not my fault everyone follows what we do.
I don't expect people to write code but I'd wanted to give the option for them to do sp. I'm also not saying that sign shops are bad, I'm just saying it's wayy overrused to be fun anymore. I know it ain't your fault.
I was just out driving, and was thinking the same thing... about round wheels. They are way overused, and just not fun anymore. I'm going to come up with a new wheel shape. Will the new shape work as well on my car? Probably not, but at least I won't be like all the losers out there just rolling around.
It seems like we've come to a point where actually building a few of these things needs to happen. This was said in another thread: we prolly don't have enough people to have multiple competing currencies. But it might be fun to try out for a little while at least. FYI, I'm going to attempt to build my first suggestion and see how it goes. If it fails, then I had fun building it.
